This is my first post and because I have been trailing every possible material here in Australia to use as a compliant surface for my FTIR table- yes I even screened my own silicone sheet! - I have finally found a material which works perfectly in combination with Rosco (or in my case white nylon PVC sheeting..)
And it’s Cheap!!!
It’s called Non-Woven Interfacing 305L1200 White (I think the code is store specific.) And it comes on a roll. I paid AUD$1.50 per meter!!!
(See pic below)
This material can be found at most Fabric stores (In Australia I bought it from Spotlight)
It is sort of see through and has a silicone like layer applied to one side of the material. (This layer is very thin and shiny)
I will post more pics of this material showing both sides soon.
The combination of (from bottom to top) Acrylic/Non-Woven/Non-Woven/Rosco/Laminating Sheet gives very good “Zero Force” results. The table still needs to be calibrated properly and I need to buy a projector for rear projection so it’s a little fiddly to calibrate. Using a test projector the image from the projector difuses very well with the combination of the above layers.
I will add a YouTube Video soon of the test results.
Below is a screenshot from Touchlib showing the “Zero Force” applied to produce an image using my fingers [pic1] . in [pic2], I have placed a roll of tape on top of the surface and you can clearly see some FTIR effect being produced with “Zero Force” when the tape is rolled from one corner to the other.
Thanks, that sounds very promising. I’ve still been waiting all the time for a compliant surface without annoyances and financial risks. Zero effort for zero force, so to say.
Please let us know more as soon as you get a chance. That image of the fabric looks to be from ebay, is that where you got it? If you have a brand name or any more information you could give us along with more screenshots, that would be great. Have you tried the material with a projection? I’m wondering if it’ll block too much light. This looks very promising if it’s as easy as buying this material. It looks like Interfacing non-woven material is available many places. I might try to see if I can get some of the weekend.
@ElkMonster, Great hope it helps, even with all the recommendations from this forum, I still had to spend like AUD$100 testing material from 3mm silicone foam (which works very well by the way! - just not good for rear projection), to Translucent Silicone Rubber 40/60 Duro at AUD$80 for a 40 x 30 cm sheet! (luckily for samples!)
@cerupcat, yeah the picture I just found on the net. Pretty vague though...There is no brand name I can see on the receipt. Just the code mentioned above. (305L1200). I think this stuff comes in different thicknesses, and someone told me people use it as iron-on transfer material like the numbers on a football jumper.
The image from the projector diffuses very well with the combination of the Rosco type material and the Non woven interfacing. I have a Sharp Vision projector at home and the picture was great! I did have to hold up the acrylic to the ceiling because my projector is bolted to the roof, which made it kinda tricky. Childs Play 2 looked clear enough
Ok so still don’t have my camera, but, I’ve taken a photo with my Blackberry using 1 layer of the Non-Woven Interfacing (Silicone layer down) up against a Pioneer Plasma. With a Projector the results are much better (as you would imagine), but the interfacing is quite see through.
Great find !!
Gonna pick some up this weekend
and give it a try !!!
here in the states , jo-anns fabrics
has a wide assortment in different thickness
and really really cheap price…
Is this non-woven intended to be ironed on clothes? There seem to be a lot of different non-woven types out there, some more details about what your non-woven is normally intended for would be helpful.
Btw, he should be given a nui t-shirt if this proves to be the solution to all our compliant surface problems.
I just ran by JoAnn Fabrics and played with their non-wovens. From my in-store experimentation, Therm-O-Web Heat ‘N Bond Lite iron-on adhesive seems to most closely match this description. I bought 2 yards (15” x 72") for $2.50.
My FTIR equipment is at school, and I’ve got one more day at home before winter break ends. Excited to start playing with multitouch again!
I just bought some at a Wallmart. I got the lightest one they had since it seemed to be the best. It cost $3.15 for 2 yards.
Unfortunatley, I just tried it and it does not produce FTIR very well. I can get some blobs if I press somewhat hard, but nothing like the screenshots above and no “zero” force. The other versions of the fabric felt the same as far as “stickiness” so I don’t think the other versions would have been better. I also tried a paper based version, and this didn’t produce FTIR at all. So maybe you got lucky with yours Fairlane.
I’m interested to hear how yours goes theillustratedlife. Unfortunately I didn’t have much luck. It seems a stickier version may work better. Fairlane, did you find it necessary to double up the fabric? 2 layers? I haven’t tried that yet.
I tried projection with it and it’s not bad. Pretty clear, but up close you can see the fabric grains a bit. Not very noticeable though. If we can get it to work, the projection would still be good enough.
Update:
I tested some more and tried it with 2 layers with the same results. It does cause FTIR, but my silicone side (since I already have silicone on the acrylic) is much better.
After testing with the fabric alone, I placed 1 layer on top of the silicone layer and it works even better than just my layer of silicone alone. I get better sensitivity (complete zero force) with the combination of both silicone and this fabric. It’d be nice to find the right brand of fabric so the silicone is not needed.
I just bought some at a Wallmart. I got the lightest one they had since it seemed to be the best. It cost $3.15 for 2 yards.
Unfortunatley, I just tried it and it does not produce FTIR very well. I can get some blobs if I press somewhat hard, but nothing like the screenshots above and no “zero” force. The other versions of the fabric felt the same as far as “stickiness” so I don’t think the other versions would have been better. I also tried a paper based version, and this didn’t produce FTIR at all. So maybe you got lucky with yours Fairlane.
I’m interested to hear how yours goes theillustratedlife. Unfortunately I didn’t have much luck. It seems a stickier version may work better. Fairlane, did you find it necessary to double up the fabric? 2 layers? I haven’t tried that yet.
I tried projection with it and it’s not bad. Pretty clear, but up close you can see the fabric grains a bit. Not very noticeable though. If we can get it to work, the projection would still be good enough.
No, One layer was ok, however, I did double up the layers anyway. I will speak to the store when I go back to work (store is really close to work) and I will find out as much as I can about the fabric. I had amazing results with this stuff and like I said in my first post, I tried just about everything too!! I hope it wasn’t a fluke cause it’s soOOoo cheap and easy! My setup is a 41cm x 31cm sheet of 10mm Acrylic, 30 IR Led’s (from lots of remote controls! - 10 top and bottom, 5 on the sides), All held together with an aluminum frame bordered by aluminum tape and finished with black fabric adhesive tape (the kind they use for lenticular lenses on rear-projection screens)
I did find that one layer of the non-woven interfacing was pretty poor by itself, but when applied with the Rosco on top (or in my case white nylon PVC sheeting), the results were as described in the first post. I added another layer of Laminated sheeting (cut a laminated sheet of A3 used for laminating paper in half and used as a protect layer.) so that the white Rosco was not left grubby, and fingers slide easier.
I’m about to film some results now and i’ll post a video very soon…
Sounds good Fairlane. Really glad you found the material even though the brand I got doesn’t work very well on it’s own.
My table is about twice the size, so maybe I need more LEDs (using 50 osram) for the fabric to work better (since it did work to an extent) or find a better brand.
I just spent the last 10 minutes playing with the silicone + interfacing fabric and it’s the best results I’ve had. No dead spots, zero force on the whole table with this combination. Previously, with silicone alone, I had decent results, but occasionally I would have to use some pressure. With this new combination, things are fantastic. I hope they get more fantastic if we’re able to remove the silicone! =) Keep up the work and thanks for sharing this with us.
Ok, I FINALLY got some videos uploaded showing some results with the non-woven interfacing. Also the projection quality (as much as you can show holding up a panel to a roof mounted projector!! )
The videos are:
FTIR Test using the Non-woven interfacing:
Projection Test with same material:
You’ll notice from the first video that the room is quite dark, this is because the display doesn’t have a frame yet and is held up by 2 coffee tables. This exposes the camera (Xbox 360 LIVE Vision camera) to A LOT of ambient lighting, so for testing only a small background lamp and the camera’s internal light were used. The second video attempts to show the projection quality using all layers of the display 2x Interfacing, 1x Nylon PVC sheet, 1x Laminating sheet. The problem was that the sheets were not properly secured, and if you look closely some areas are clearer than others. This is because the sheets are being held vertical and because they’re not stuck down properly, are not flat to the acrylic making the projection better in some areas. (you get the idea though )
@cerupcat Don’t know if lighting has anything to do with your poor results with this material?? Are you using only silicone + this material?? E.g. Do you have Rosco?? Adding Rosco made a HUGE difference for me.
@ theillustratedlife: I’ll repot back later in this post what the brand name of the one I got. I have to got look it up.
@Fairlane, very great results. Hopefully the store will have information that you can share with us. I have rosco grey, rosco black, tracing paper, drafting film, protective film. I tried all combinations I could think of with the interfacing material on top of the acrylic and other material (rosco, drafting film, etc.) on top. The piece on top really didn’t make any difference. For those that already have silicone and want to make there surface even more sensitive, I’m finding the combination of the two are working extremely well.
I’ll see if I can do more tests with just the interfacing to see if I can work it out, but I think I just need a better brand or something. When I went to buy mine, the different types were made out of different material, but the shiny sides all seemed about the same. So maybe the material also slightly effects the quality. I’ll report back on the brand and material (cotton percentage) later today.
I got mine from jo-anns fabric the other night
the name brand of the one i purchased was
PELLUM .. although im not having that good of
results at the moment.
couple of questions…
1) What is the thickness of the non-woven
interfacing that you purchased ?
(i got the thinnest , thinking it would be better for projection)
2) If using multiple layers of the interfacing,
What is the orientation of the layers ?
(treated side of the fabric facing up or down each layer)
Im getting better results than without the non-woven but i
am also struggling with projector/f.s mirror placement at the same time....
I got mine from jo-anns fabric the other night
the name brand of the one i purchased was
PELLUM .. although im not having that good of
results at the moment.
couple of questions…
1) What is the thickness of the non-woven
interfacing that you purchased ?
(i got the thinnest , thinking it would be better for projection)
2) If using multiple layers of the interfacing,
What is the orientation of the layers ?
(treated side of the fabric facing up or down each layer)
Im getting better results than without the non-woven but i
am also struggling with projector/f.s mirror placement at the same time....
1) Mine is really Really thin...I’d say the same as an A4 sheet of paper.
2) I have treaded side facing down on both layers. Also with my nylon PVC sheeting, one side is sort of rubbery and the other is smoother. I have rubbery side down also.
Just a thought...Do you think the combination of these 2 materials is the reason it works so well for me???
If prototyping your project in your garage,
with parts and cables on the ground.....
Dont forget to build a barrier to keep your
curious dogs(and some people) from walking thru
your project . LOL
Does the treated side of the non-woven that you are using
have an obviously noticable rubbery feel.?
the stuff i bought is thinnest they had . and one side feels
slightly smoother than the other.
**edit**
3 layers and rosco on top , getting better blobs
but also starting to get alot of visual noise.
Yes it does. It’s also very stretchy too. If i gently pull a small piece, then it will spring back to it’s original position. If I pull too hard, then the rubbery material will deform and shrivel up the material.
I tested the table again last night and found that the down lights in the room I was testing in played a very big roll in sensitivity of the table. I don’t think the combination of material I’m using is very good for blocking ambient IR. With the lights on (almost directly over the table) there was a difficulty achieving “Zero Force”. With the lights off, however, the results were outstanding!
I have made a makeshift table to give my coffee tables a break! Still in production stages, and very quickly drafted! But at least this way I don’t have to worry about setting it up all the time, and for now it’ll do.. When I have time i’ll do it properly.
I’m worried that if I add an IR blocking layer, then the projection quality will be lost.... Hmmm more thinking!!!
