Help for my 100% fiducial table - bunch of questions
Posted: 14 April 2012 12:45 PM   [ Ignore ]
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Hello everybody,

First: sorry for my bad English. It’s not my native language…

I’m starting a project to build a fiducial kitchen to “cook” videos and sounds. There will be a raw of 3 cabinets like this one and one worktop.

Left and right cabinets are here just to store the fiducials decks (and to make the installation look like a real kitchen). All the magic is in the middle one.

So… the cabinet has this dimensions: height 70cm, width 59.8cm, depth 60cm. The worktop is 3.8 height. I want to cut a 50x50cm hole and fill it some plexiglass (sorry, acrylite) that while look like a glass ceramic hob.

I want to track fiducials only (no fingers) and I don’t need any video feedback (visual are somewhere else...). The objects I want to track are 6 or 8cm diameter circles.

Here are my questions:

1) Will one ps3 eye do the job? Or do I need to use many.
2) What lens should I use? I was considering a m12 4mm or a CS varifocal.
3) Do I need IR illumination? Since I don’t need video feedback but want my glass to glow, I was considering using visible light. But if I do this I’m scare to be very dependent of external light conditions (I had some trouble with my MTmini like prototype).
4) ReacTIVIsion or CCV ?
5) What kind of surface should I use? I would like that the users can’t the the inside of the box, that the surface was grey or brown (to look like a hob) but to have a good fiducial detection.

That’s all for the moment, thanks you very much !

Romuald

PS. Question 6: is there someone that I could meet around Paris to share experiences?

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Posted: 16 April 2012 12:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
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From México with a worst english… XD
If you like fiducial detections you’ll need something like back ilumination, i think with one, maybe two cameras will be enough, and the light… well, depends a lot of your enviroment, you can use some ir block film like the one that the windows uses for heat reduction.
If you want your acrilic with light i also recomend use infrared leds with just some visibles to achieve the effect you want, because if not, the visible light could be hitting directly on the users eyes wich its not the best usability.
I haven’t use reactivision but i readed that it’s a little better for fiducials (Just opinions, nothing official, even myself don’t know this).
Surface on top… if you don’t need visual feedbak maybe you only have to search some top layer that don’t blur the draws of your fiducials a lot.

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Posted: 18 April 2012 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
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Thanks for your answer,

Are sure that visible light would hitting on the users eyes? I don’t think so because, with a good surface, a video projector don’t.
Actually I did some tests with 2 neon’s tubes and a single camera and it seems to be ok.

Do you have an idea for the surface? For my test I took some glass with tracing paper but I would prefer the good acylic.

PS: I’m going to ash the questions in the related forums.

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Posted: 18 April 2012 01:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
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depends of you disffuser. if it’s good i don’t think you’ll don’t have problems, you hace a lot less problems since you don’t need visual feedback so i think you’ll resolve all real quick, for the surface i could say avoid the glass since filtters infrared light, but since you’re using visible light i don’t see the problem, in the ohter hand i think the acrylic will look much nicer glowing, but it scratches faster and is more expensive, so depend of your investment, for the surface maybe you could try with Vegetable Parchment Paper (in méxico is also called albanene), or other cheaper solutions than buy an expensive top layer beacuse you don’t have to worry about the quality of the image in the paper, i hope that can be usefull for you, since i learned a lot but of FTIR and DIY and soy necessities are very specific

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Posted: 18 April 2012 08:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
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For Paris the AVIZ group at INRIA have researchers working on tabletops and visualization. The contact is Dr. Petra Isenberg.
http://www.aviz.fr/~isenberg/wiki/pmwiki.php

In terms of size of your screen and what lens and mounts to use have a look at PeauProductions.com there is lots of good information there. Plus projector calculations.
http://www.peauproductions.com/proj_lcds.html

For something 50cm x 50cm (~27 inches) best aspect ratio is to go for 4:3.

I am not working with fiducials but CCV definitely supports fiducials, I think since version 1.4.

I would also go for a DSI setup as described by Nolan from PeauProductions.
http://www.peauproductions.com/dsi.html

Cheers Craig

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Multi-touch Table User Interfaces for Software Visualization
http://homepages.ecs.vuw.ac.nz/~craig (homepage)
http://www.elvis.ac.nz/Main/Multi-touchTable (48” and 28” tables)
http://softvis.wordpress.com/ (blog)

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Posted: 19 April 2012 04:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
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Hello,

Thanks for the contact. I had visited all Peau’s site but I still note sure about the lens between a M12 4.3mm, an M12 varifocal, a CS varifocal or many cameras…
Why do you think a DSI is better than a DI ? Do you think I’ll get a better illumination with DSI ?
(Actually, I’m pretty scare to solder leds and Endligthen maybe too expensive for my budget...)

Thanks.

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Posted: 19 April 2012 07:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
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DSI gets less hover effect than DI.

Ideally you want fiducials on capacitance but that is expensive and I am not aware of any large solution like that.

Alternatively if there is a large TV screen and support for fiducials that would be a compromise.

However, this all depends on how much money you have for your budget and what your end goal is, and where you can add the most value to your project.

Cheers Craig

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Multi-touch Table User Interfaces for Software Visualization
http://homepages.ecs.vuw.ac.nz/~craig (homepage)
http://www.elvis.ac.nz/Main/Multi-touchTable (48” and 28” tables)
http://softvis.wordpress.com/ (blog)

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Posted: 23 April 2012 07:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
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Your best bet for simple fiducial tracking is building a Rear DI setup.  You can spend a little more to make a DSI setup and your blobs would be better, but the added cost probably isn’t worth it.

Please use the lens calculator found on our site to determine the proper lens.  For an image area of 50x50xm and a distance of about 60cm from camera to screen, you would need a single camera with a 3.54mm lens on it.  We sell a 3.6mm m12 lens that will work perfectly (and have very little distortion.. important when building a fiducial tracking setup).

If you have further questions let us know.

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Posted: 26 April 2012 10:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
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Hello Peau,

Thanks for your answer(s).

I have more questions but, to avoid duals posts, I propose we continue the discussions my others topics :

http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/13913/
http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/13914/
http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/13915/

Thanks again.

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