im preparing my shopping list for a >37” DSI Project. I planned to buy 2x
PS3 Cams

Now i discovered that there are several new HD Cams out for a very good price!

Please take a look and let me know what you guys think of these Cams:

Toshiba Camileo S20
Can be connected via HDMI (faster?)

Point Grey HD - 1080p @ 60fps!

The Flip Ultra / Mino HD

Kodak Zi6 - 720p @ 60fps

Samsung HMX-U10

Sony MHS-PM1

My Questions:

3) Are those Cams supported by the software/drivers like the PS3 Cam ?

hmmm.
Yes they would give you higher resolution, I would guess.
but they would probably recuire much more prosesing power..

as fore working with the software. yes. if they can be used by your computer as a “live” cam I dont se why they wouldent.

why more processig power? cuz of the higher FPS ?

im going to use a Intel I5 / AMD X4 965 - both very powerful CPUs -

so any other cons besides the higher cpu usage ?

for me the specs of those cams look waaay better than the PS3 cam or am i wrong ?

the modded PS3 cam would cost 130$ - with much lower specs. the sony cam with 5MP - HD and more FPS cost 129$
it would be a little more expensive (cuz of the missing m12 lens and bandpassfilter) but the resolution and FPS is higher… i dont know what is the best choice for my setup.

Aside from the Point Grey cam (which I assume is quite a bit more expensive than a PS3 eye), most of these are more portable camcorders then webcams, and may not have the ability to connect to a computer and play live video through. Certainly my Flip Mino camera cannot be connected to my computer and function as a webcam.

The issue with performance deals with both the size of the image being tracked AND the frame rate. So, you are talking about a lot more pixels being tracked a lot more often.

While increasing resolution is important for things like facial recognition, I am not so sure its of huge importance when it comes to tracking black and white blobs.

Lucidmedia: You are right. I’m familiar with image processing and obviously, the higher the resolution, the longer the operation takes. The more images you get per second, the more you need to do.
As to the ‘I got a powerful CPU’ argument: One thing to realize is that in order to use all the cores your CPU provides, the tracking application must be explicitly written that way. I don’t know whether CCV or any other tracker does processing in parallel. If it did (assuming it even scaled well with the number of cores you got), an i7 might even be the better choice since it got HyperThreading. Again: This is just theory about CPUs and image processing. I have not actually checked the CCV code, but I *think* CCV uses only one core. So in that case, a single core’s speed is more important than having multiple cores. (For that one application. Obviously it would be neat if CCV supported n cores, but it’s not trivial to do that.)

Does anyone know where to start in the CVV code to take advantage of multiple cores?

i checked the specifications of all cams and e.g. the sony can process raw video and can be used as a webcam too. im sure thats also possible with the samsung h10 but i get ur point @lucidmedia…

what about the screen capture size of the PS3 compared to a “real” camcorder it is limited an the captured area should be smaller , correct?

ive read that a dual core cpu is recommended for optimal ccv perfomance (dunno why if.. you say that ccv is designed for single core)
i just read an interesting article about GPU accelerated computers...maybe ccv should use gpu power too.

in the end im just looking for the optimal camera for my setup… and if its just for 50-100$ im willing to spend that if the result is better (fps / resolution / cpu usage)

so ... PS3 camera or a low budget HD camcorder ?

Peau will probably get angry but the PS3 camera is not 130$. you don;t have to buy the custom case which is ~50$ unless you don’t want to build anything

The IR Filter is ~20$ so to have the same modded sony cam for example would cost 150-160$ ... double the price of a modded ps3.

You can do fiducials at 640/480 quite ok. 60 fps will also be enough.

On a side note… I noticed in your signature you are going to build a DSI device without led frame but with IR illuminators. You want to have a DSI table with a DI illumination? IF this is the case may I ask why? you wouldn;t need endlighten for this, even more, you won;t be able to use it in this scenario, it will behave like a normal acrylic but worse.

the_goat - 12 December 2009 11:28 AM

what about the screen capture size of the PS3 compared to a “real” camcorder it is limited an the captured area should be smaller , correct?

Can you more clearly define “screen capture size”? Do you mean the camera’s field of view? How large of a rectangle the camera can see at a fixed distance?

If so, yes. A camcorder often has a zoom lens, but most do not zoom back into the wide-angle / fisheye lens distances that one can get with a fixed camera lens. You need special glass for that. How wide your camcorder can zoom defines how tall your table needs to be, or how many cameras you need within your table. I could not find a zoom range for the sony, but did see that reviewers felt it did not open particularly wide.

One other thing to consider is the difficulty for each of these cameras to open them up, cut out the IR filter and replace it with a visible light filter. Many of these handheld camcorders look pretty well sealed and difficult to crack open.

If you remove the IR filter, it may cause focus issues (as happens on the PS3s, see Peau’s website for a great description of this issue). Another problem you may run into is that some cameras use an IR coating that is bonded to the glass itself that must be removed with acid.

You won’t know the answers to the issues above until you have bought the camera and cracked it open. So, factor into your budget some trial and error time / money. 

the_goat - 12 December 2009 11:28 AM

ive read that a dual core cpu is recommended for optimal ccv perfomance (dunno why if.. you say that ccv is designed for single core)
i just read an interesting article about GPU accelerated computers...maybe ccv should use gpu power too. 

Sounds great to me… write a patch and share it with the community. This is the joy of open source software…

the_goat - 12 December 2009 11:28 AM

in the end im just looking for the optimal camera for my setup… and if its just for 50-100$ im willing to spend that if the result is better (fps / resolution / cpu usage)

so ... PS3 camera or a low budget HD camcorder ?

well, if you already owned one of these cameras and were willing to sacrifice it in an experiment, I think you would be able to share some valuable knowledge. But, depending on your budget, it may be hard to justify the purchase if it does not work out.

There are plenty of usable HD cameras out there, but they are a lot more money than we are currently talking about.

Another (simpler) option for adding more resolution is to add more cameras in your table. The surface (which is designed for object and tag recognition) has 4 for its 30-some-odd inch screen. You may get more for your money with many cheap cameras than one more expensive HD one.

@madian
THANK YOU! i missed that part and thought that i DO need endlightened… so all i need is a smooth acrylic/glas and a diffuser, correct? what abaout frosted glass / acrylic or what abaout plexiglas 7d006/9 ?

i want a table with illuminators instead of an LED frame… mainly because i saw some very good illuminated setups or is the LED frame much better ?

@lucidmedia
yes, with “screen capture size” i mean the field of view… i understand that the “covered” area of one PS3 camera is “48*68cm “...but isnt the covered area depending on the distance of the camera… and therefore i need an extra focus lense for the PS3 that focuses to the height of my acrylic, correct?

“You may get more for your money with many cheap cameras than one more expensive HD one. “
thank you very much!! thats a good point and im going to buy 2 PS3 cams instead of one HD camcorder =)

but what if i buy 4 cams? i read that the multicam driver by alexp (so far) is just working with 2 cams… ? and i havent understood how you calibrate the fields of view of each cam so they are “stitched” to one picture.

thanks again… my camera selection process is finished - im buying 2 cameras (sorry peau...without case =)

sorry for bringing this up again. i read some more in the wiki andb imho the PS3 is the most cost effective choice but after reading the wiki about cameras , fps & resolution i think many are just buying the PS3 cam because of the driver, support and similar setups but mainly because its cheap!

to make it easy… i have 200$ to spend just for the camera ...so whats the best choice?

i understand that the mentionen cams (see first post) are difficult to mod e.g. changing the lense, adding bandpass etc. but logitech, creative, kodak...there are lots of HD cams with 60fps @ 720p resolution and raw video.

please could someone tell me if it is better (for overall performance) to use a HD cam with HDMI connectivity rather than a PS3 with USB (1.0?)
Anyone tried a newer HD webcam ?

madian - 12 December 2009 03:10 PM

Peau will probably get angry but the PS3 camera is not 130$. you don;t have to buy the custom case which is ~50$ unless you don’t want to build anything

madian is right.  The ps3 eye modded camera need not be the $130 you mentioned.  To get one with the adjustable focus, you can get the $80 from my store and either keep the OEM casing it comes with or upgrade to the nicer custom case I’ve made, up to you and your setup.  Or even just buy the camera and necessary parts yourself and do the modding on your own.  The reason there is such a huge push and following behind the ps3 eye camera is that for the price, you can take the camera and just add a few things in order to make it a really good imaging device for these optical-based multitouch setups.  Sure the HD cameras may be nice, and have high resolution, but most of these systems on the forum that you’ve probably seen on the showcase thread usually never use a resolution higher than 320x240, since it allows a much higher fps (up to 125fps).  If you have a fast enough computer you should be able to use the 640x480 rez, but since the framerate will be lower it is up to your experimenting.  Unless you plan on doing fiducial recognition, you can get away with using the lower resolution, since frame rate is usually the most important factor in making the user’s interaction smooth and accurate.  When I use touch screens, delay is far more of an annoying problem than extremely precise tracking.

thanks a lot! im going to use two cameras and a single mirror… but i have a (calculation) problem with the cameras (viewing area). please take a look:
http://nuigroup.com/forums/viewthread/8293/

blabla

the_goat:

unless you have some software solution of stitching multiple (two in you case) cameras, you will not be able to use those HD cams (even if you manage to modify them: remove IR coating, add custom lens and/or IR filter). If you take two PS3 cams from Peau for 80$ each plus 3.6mm M12 lenses, you will be able to use two cams with AlexP-s driver and CCV 1.3.

i want a table with illuminators instead of an LED frame… mainly because i saw some very good illuminated setups or is the LED frame much better ?

if you say DSI, it means, that you use Endlghtend and IR frame/ribbon around it. you can always add some IR illuminators from behind, but i think DSI will do the job well.
why don’t you try to use some 32” LCD, with DSI it would work well....

@zviangi
thx.... i was confused cause i read that either use frame or illuminators…
does adding illuminators to the endlightened improve blob quality? i thought endlightened is especially made for edge lightening?

i found those led ribbons from enviromental lights and i think with them it should be no problem to build a nice frame…